This conversation explores the transition from military service to federal employment, focusing on the benefits, complexities, and considerations involved. Amy shares insights on military and federal benefits coordination, buyback options for military service, health care considerations, retirement income streams, survivor benefits, and special considerations for reservists. The discussion emphasizes the importance of understanding the nuances of both systems to make informed decisions for a secure financial future.

Takeaways

• Many military members transition to federal employment for familiarity and benefits

• There is significant overlap between military and federal benefits that can be coordinated.

• Understanding military service buyback options is crucial for maximizing retirement benefits.

• Annual leave accrual differs between military and federal employment, with specific rules for each.

• Retirement income streams can be complex, with various pensions and tax implications to consider.

• The military survivor benefit program is generally more generous than federal options.

• Reservists have specific protections and benefits that differ from active duty members.

• It’s important to do thorough research and seek advice when transitioning to federal employment.

• Understanding the timing of pension benefits is key to financial planning.

• Just because a benefit is available doesn’t mean it’s the best choice for everyone.

Chapters

00:00 Transitioning from Military to Civilian Employment

03:08 Understanding Military and Federal Benefits

05:59 Navigating Buyback Options for Military Service

09:03 Annual Leave and Health Care Considerations

11:59 Retirement Income Streams and Tax Implications

14:56 Survivor Benefits: Military vs. Federal

17:58 Special Considerations for Reservists

20:58 Final Thoughts on Federal Employment After Military Service

Links

You can register for Amy’s webinar ⁠here.⁠

⁠https://events.teams.microsoft.com/event/9746255a-786d-48d8-bb9f-61023945bea8@8190aedd-e648-4bc2-bfeb-d25a944d2b64⁠

Schedule a consultation with Mike: https://nextmissionfinancialplanning.com/contact/   

Schedule a consultation with Amy: https://www.instarfp.com/contact

TRANSCRIPT

Mike Hunsberger (00:00)
All right, welcome back, everybody. ⁓ Today we’ve got a great topic. We’re going to be talking about ⁓ civilian

GFs, or government service civilian employment after ⁓ military either service or retirement, and some of the benefits that go along with that and how you coordinate everything between what you may have earned as military and then

what the federal government offers as kind of follow on benefits and the things that folks need to know that can contribute up if you’re not aware of them. So Amy is kind of an expert in this. So this is going to be more of an interview with me talking to Amy and just asking her all the questions that folks have about this typically.

All right, Amy. yeah, appreciate you sharing your knowledge today. This is something that I’ve worked on some, but not as much as I think you have. You’re one of the go-tos on this within the military financial advisor space. So let’s just kick it off. Why do so many, it seems like military either

when they’re separating or retiring, end up going to the federal ⁓ government to continue to serve.

Amy (01:54)
Yeah, there are a lot of people. mean, not everybody, but certainly a lot of people. And, you know, there’s a lot of reasons people want to go to the federal government. ⁓ Sometimes it’s because they’re filling a current position. They have specialized expertise. So the organization doesn’t want to lose their expertise. So they hire them into a GS position. ⁓ Sometimes the service member, you know, changes agencies or changes jobs or whatever, but it’s

⁓ The federal government’s familiar. They like the idea of having an additional pension. ⁓

and ⁓ they liked the idea of continuing to serve. And then obviously there’s, you we’re not going to touch on this necessarily today. We’re not human resources experts here, but there are some benefits, or there’s some advantages if you have veterans preference in the hiring process. So I think for those reasons, it makes for a good career transition choice for a lot of military members.

Mike Hunsberger (02:55)
Yeah, I mean, you see it all the time. ⁓ Many times it’s within the same organization, like you said, because they’ve got that specialized expertise that is in high demand on both sides, either the military or on the civilian side. ⁓ And so the benefits are in a lot of ways similar, a lot of ways different.

So ⁓ what really makes that transition complex and what are some of the big things that we’ll talk about today that folks can just be aware of ⁓ as we get started?

Amy (03:37)
I mean, I think that the most important thing to keep in mind is that, you know, your military benefits are fantastic benefits. The federal employee benefits are also fantastic benefits. ⁓ But ⁓ there are opportunities to coordinate the two systems. ⁓ So, you know, a

perhaps I’ll say mistake, is to assume that there are two separate freestanding systems when in reality there is some crossover. There’s a lot of rules and nuance in between those crossovers. So making sure that ⁓ people who are retiring and heading to…

federal civilian job, making sure they understand what benefits they can, you know, I’ll say double up on, maybe not double up on. It is really, it’s really important because it can make a big difference. Your decisions can make a really big difference in the long-term success and ⁓ security of your family.

Mike Hunsberger (04:36)
so what would you say is there one overarching big misconception that folks might have or, know, I know we’ll get into the specific topics, but anything other than that, that, you know, there is overlap, there’s separate, you know, and just being aware of that is probably the most important thing.

Amy (04:55)
I mean, that is the most important thing is to realize that there is some overlap. Some things count, some things don’t. The rules are complex. I mean, I think the thing that people know most about is your service buyback. I think there’s a little bit of confusion around it. ⁓

I don’t know, really the biggest misconception is just assuming that you make decisions about your federal benefits. So presumably, you know, you either are in the reserves, still serving, or you have served active duty or reserves and now you’re completely transitioning your federal. And to assume that your military benefits or your military time has nothing to do with your civilian time, I think is a big mistake. I think people know that there’s some overlap, but they…

It’s confusing. There’s a lot of rules. ⁓ So trying to get the rules between the two and understanding what applies to you is, that’s the challenge, right?

Mike Hunsberger (05:51)
So you mentioned ⁓ military service buyback and I know that’s always a big topic at that transition point. what does that really mean when you say buyback ⁓ military service time under FERS retirement system?

Amy (06:11)
Yeah, so if you served in the military or are serving as a, you know, reserve guardsman or guards person, ⁓ you have the opportunity to buy back your time. ⁓ And, you know, it’s really important to understand what this means, what the decision means for you as early in your career as possible. ⁓ And buying back your time is literally a buyback. You’re going to, you’re going to pay into the FERS retirement system.

⁓ which is really federal employee retirement systems. You’re to buy into FERS based on what your compensation was during your military time. ⁓ Now there’s a lot of rules around this. ⁓

Number one, if you’re a veteran who separated from the military and you are not receiving a longevity retirement, ⁓ you can buy your time back and, you know, obviously you’re not getting a pension so it doesn’t impact anything. It will not impact your VA disability payments if you’re receiving them. So for the most part, if you’re somebody, if you were a veteran, you separated from service and you’re not receiving a longevity ⁓ pension, it probably makes sense for you to buy back your time as early in your career as possible.

⁓ as early as possible because interest will start accruing and you will owe interest if you don’t make your full deposit by the end of your third year. And keep in mind it does take time. You’ve got to, you know, get DFAS to do something for you. You’ve got to get your HR to do something for you and then you have to have time to have the money to pay it back. ⁓

Now that’s for a veteran who’s separated, not receiving retirement. If you’re active duty and you’re receiving a longevity retirement, meaning you made it to 20 and you’re getting paid ⁓ retirement, you can buy your time back. But when you buy that time back, ⁓ after you retire and you start collecting your federal pension, your military pension will go away. It will stop.

⁓ So ⁓ that is a more difficult decision, but I will say that there are definitely times it makes sense to go ahead and do that. You need to run your own calculators. ⁓ I will say that I’ve seen it make a lot of sense where, you know, if you were ⁓

you you retired at 20, you were higher grade enlisted, E7, E8, but now in the federal sector, you’re, you know, a GS 14 or 15. It can make sense. ⁓ If you didn’t elect the survivor benefit and now you really, there’s a really good reason that you have a survivor benefit.

and you’re not giving up too much, it might make sense to buy back your time just so you can have that survivor benefit for your spouse. The math is complex, but it’s worth doing ⁓ in some cases. Now, if you’re a retired 06 and you’re a GS-15, it probably doesn’t make sense, ⁓ but ⁓ in some cases it can. And then the last part for buyback is reservists buying back their time.

Tons of confusion around this, the rule just stated as simply as possible. ⁓ If your reserve time, if any of your reserve time is captured on the DD-214, that time can be bought back and you will not give up your military pension. So ⁓ some might call it double dipping if you will, ⁓ but if you have 214 time, you can buy that time back and then it will count towards federal service. It will also count towards your reserve pension.

So that’s a lot. It’s, you know, and that’s just the flavor of how complex it is. That’s kind of like the first layer of complexity, right?

Mike Hunsberger (09:51)
Yeah.

All right. Yeah, no, that’s a great overview, though. So people should definitely do more homework, as we say. Your situation is specific to you and understanding it. Good rules of thumb on when it may and may not make sense. But ⁓ yeah, good deal. And then how is that

How is the buyback different than the annual leave accrual credit that you get for military service? I know that comes up semi-often.

Amy (10:23)
Yeah, that’s it is and there’s a lot of confusion there. So one more thing on the buyback that I forgot to mention, if you’re active duty and you went to an academy, a service academy, you can buy back your service academy time without impacting your military pension. ⁓ So that is also something good to keep in mind.

But switching back to the annual leave, you actually don’t have to buy back your time. You don’t have to pay anything to get credit for annual leave accrual. Essentially what happens is, again, there’s a difference on whether or not you separated or you have a longevity retirement, you’re receiving retirement ⁓ after 20 years of service. ⁓ If you separated, you basically get, you know, one for one time for leave purposes. And this matters because, you know, in your first few years of federal service, you’re only going to get four

of the annual leave of pay period.

⁓ After three years, then you’re going to get six years, six hours of annual leave. And that can make a big difference to your family. Now, if you have a longevity retirement, the rules are a little bit different. You’re basically only going to get credit for combat zone deployments ⁓ for your annual leave. it’s, you know, more rules, more complexity. ⁓ But the key takeaways there are that it doesn’t cost you anything. And that should be done automatically ⁓ when you first sign up. So the key for you is when

first get to your job. They should take care of this automatically but it’s your job to make sure on your SF50 your date, your leave date, properly reflects the amount of service that it should reflect.

Mike Hunsberger (12:01)
That’s great. All right. Anything else on the buybacks or retirement credit stuff that we didn’t hit?

Amy (12:10)
No, I would just say that, you know, don’t presume to know whether or not it makes sense to buy back time. you’re, unless you’re in one of the like outlying sort of things, you’re an 06, you’re a GS 15, probably no, right? You know, especially if you have 30 years. But if you’re, you know, anything less than that serving in a high ranking GS position, I would do the math and walk through and, you know, just kind of understand.

how cost of living adjustments are taken into account for each and all that kind of stuff. But just don’t presume what you should do, run the numbers.

Mike Hunsberger (12:50)
That’s great. All right, let’s move on to health care. ⁓ One of the things, and this is primarily for the military retiree, is you have TRICARE, which then eventually turns into TRICARE for life. You’re covered. ⁓ But when you go into the federal system, you can qualify for the health coverage there. So what are some of the things we need to think about as somebody who might?

be a retiree going into the federal system thinking about on the health benefit side.

Amy (13:22)
Yeah. So, ⁓ so the federal employee health benefit is, is also a pretty generous health benefit. It’s not as generous as TriCare. TriCare is, you know, fantastic in terms of being cost effective. FEHB gives you a lot more option. ⁓ the, the, there are a few reasons why though, if you’re, you know, you’re covered by TriCare, there are still a few reasons why you might consider enrolling in an FEHB plan at some point in your career.

⁓ And you can turn this on and off during open seasons each year. At the end of the year, the open season for FEHB is the same as it is for TRICARE. So this is a year by year decision. ⁓ But one of the biggest things that can make a lot of sense for people is as you get ready to retire from your federal job, it can make sense to opt into the FEHB, the open season prior to the year you’re going to leave.

Now you will pay premiums for that plan. You can use that plan. ⁓ But what’s nice about that is then when you retire, you can suspend FEHB. And that gives you the opportunity to turn it back on at any point during retirement. And that can offer quite a lot of flexibility for people later on.

It doesn’t cost you anything once it’s suspended. So if you never use it again, it still doesn’t cost you anything. It just costs you a few months or so of premiums ⁓ in the beginning. ⁓ And you know, it’s fantastic. Now, TRICARE counts. So there’s a rule that says you can only take FEHB into federal retirement if you had FEHB for the five years prior. TRICARE counts for that five years. So that’s why you can literally do it the year before.

So that’s one reason, one circumstance where it can make sense. The other reason I’m kind of exploring this myself at this point is, know, TRICARE turns off when your kids are age 21 or 22 if they’re still in school. And then TRICARE young adult comes along. Now, if you’re a federal employee,

you can actually put them on your FEHB plan for sometimes a little bit cheaper than the TRICARE Young Adult option. ⁓ So it could make sense for your family to look at using FEHB for that reason.

Mike Hunsberger (15:45)
No, that’s a great option because I hope they fix the tricare, make it parity with the ⁓ young adult with what’s now required on the outside to 26. But ⁓ yeah, that’s a great tip there. ⁓ Any other common mistakes you see with folks that

Amy (16:06)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Hunsberger (16:11)
maybe moving over from, you know, that have retired and now going into ⁓ civilian service that, you know, is relatively common.

Amy (16:22)
Well, one thing that’s very common, I mean, it’s low, this is low impact, but it’s still, it can make a difference. So both military retirees and federal civilians, federal retirees have access to the FedVIP program. So that’s your dental and vision program. ⁓ And what I see for military retirees, you retire, you pick your TRICARE plan, you pick your dental plan, you pick your vision plan, just automatically, right? That’s what they teach us in the TAP classes. So that’s what you do.

And the program is exactly the same. The cost is exactly the same. The only difference is when your FedVIP premium comes out of your pension, it’s after tax. You can sign up for the exact same plan for the exact same cost under your federal benefit as a federal employee. And now it comes out pre-tax from your payroll. ⁓ So low impact, but you know.

If other people hate paying taxes as much as I do, it’s worth a few bucks of savings, right?

Mike Hunsberger (17:23)
Yeah, no,

that’s a great tip. That’s a great tip. So let’s talk about, you know, get more into the retirement income and stuff. you know, so military side probably had your TSP, civilian side also, anything around that that we need to, you know, kind of highlight the folks.

Amy (17:46)
Yeah, so for TSP, first you can absolutely keep your military TSP. You don’t have to combine them. You can have two separate TSP’s. One good reason, there could be many good reasons, but one good reason ⁓ to keep your TSP separate is that you can manage how they’re invested separately. So maybe your military one.

which depending on when you left service from the military, maybe that one’s small. So you’re gonna make that one super aggressive and then your civilian one you’ll make a little bit more conservative or vice versa, ⁓ but you can manage them separately. ⁓ There are some reasons to combine them. Often the reasons that come up are that if you need a TSP loan early in your federal career,

combining the accounts would give you access to a higher balance potentially. It’s less complex. Some people just don’t like managing two accounts. But you know, it’s an individual decision. I would say that unless there’s a compelling reason to combine them, to keep them separate for a little while and let life develop and figure out what makes sense later, just in general, unless you really hate the idea of having two. You so that’s kind of it from a TSP standpoint.

Mike Hunsberger (19:07)
All right. All right. And then so how when somebody is thinking about ultimate retirement and you know what those all those income streams look like, ⁓ Social Security, military retirement, if they didn’t buy back their time ⁓ and then, you know, the first pension they might get, what do we need to think about around those things?

Amy (19:30)
Yeah, so ⁓ I mean, I think the key for a lot of people is to understand like when pensions are going to turn on. ⁓ So it’s straightforward if you’re going to get an active duty pension is going to turn on as soon as you retire. It’s a little bit more complex in the federal space. ⁓ So you might be able to leave federal service in your mind you’re retired, but you’re really separating unless your pension is going to start immediately.

So you might retire, you know, quote, retire from federal service, but your pension might not start until 62. So understanding how that pension is calculated, it is not the same as either of the military retirement system. So the legacy system, the 2.5 % multiplier, the blended system, the 2 % multiplier, your first multipliers are either

1 % or 1.1 % for most federal employees. Now there are some other special categories that are like at a 1.7 % multiplier, but the vast majority of folks are going to be in that normal FERS. ⁓ And then there’s a lot of rules about, you know, if you have five years of federal service, you’re going to get a pension if you leave your deposits where they are, but it’s not going to start till you’re 62.

⁓ It’s conceivable that you could leave federal service at your minimum retirement age for most people right now, it’s 57, ⁓ with 10 years. And then you’re still going to get a retirement. You could start your pensions right at but it’s going to be reduced. So there’s just like…

There’s a lot of rules to understand. ⁓ As long as you don’t buy back your time as a military retiree, as an active duty military retiree, you’re going to keep your pension and then your FERS is going to come in. ⁓ I’ll also just add to the complexity depending on the rules under which you’re retiring. There is also something called the… ⁓

special retirement supplement or social security supplement that also can come in ⁓ if you meet the requirements and that’ll be in until age 62. ⁓ Understanding your military pension is going to have a cost of living adjustment to it pretty much every year. Any year there’s a COLA declared you’re going to get that ⁓ as a federal employee. ⁓

If you collect your pension before 62, you will not get a COLA until 62. So lots to understand. And when you stack all these income streams together, I think it’s important for people to realize that your tax bracket isn’t going to be as low as you might think. Your friends who retired from the private sector might end up…

being in a much lower tax bracket in their early years than you’re going to be and you’re going to have tax problems and Mike and I, you we’ve talked about this before. You might have tax problems you didn’t really realize that you have not just right after retirement but into the future as well.

Mike Hunsberger (22:39)
Yeah, and that really bleeds back into, you know, we’ve talked about it before on the whole Roth versus traditional Wendy defer taxes, Wendy pay them. so, yeah, if you’re going to be in that situation, understanding that it may make sense to err more, you know, lean more toward putting some money in the Roth, you know, while you’re active, because again, you know, the

potential is that, my income is going to drop so I can do Roth conversions in my early 60s before I start taking social security. But ⁓ again, it may not drop as much. You may not drop down in those tax brackets to make it make sense. So yeah, that’s a great point. And Amien, when you were talking about buybacks, you talked a little bit about the one reason

potentially to do it is because you didn’t take SBP on your military retirement and you know, maybe now you decide you need some ⁓ increased protection for the family. So let’s talk about, ⁓ you know, what some of the differences are and just the survivor protections that come with the federal retirement.

Amy (23:54)
Yeah. So in general, the military survivor benefit program is a little bit more generous. Some of the survivor benefit premium is paid for by the government, which makes it a little cheaper. So for just the plain vanilla active duty survivor benefit, it’s six and a half percent of the pension for full coverage, which is 55%. So, you know, if you are someone who is, you know, pretty much certain that you’re going to go to federal employment,

you think you need a survivor benefit plan, but you only want one. You probably want to pick the military one because it’s six and half percent for 55%. Now on your first benefit, ⁓ your options are either full coverage, which is 50 % of your pension for 10%. So it’s more expensive and a smaller benefit. There is also an option to cover like basically half coverage.

You know, survivor benefit, you can cover less of it. It’s more flexible. FERS, you have two choices. You can cover the full or you can cover half. So 5 % cost for 25 % of your, for your pension. There are good reasons to do both. You might need both. If you’re a person who picked

FEHB ⁓ and suspended it or you think you want to do that and you want your spouse to continue to have the flexibility that turning on FEHB can offer, then you need to keep a survivor benefit. You have to keep at least 25%. ⁓ So the key takeaway here is there are differences. If you think that you are only going to pick one and you need to make a decision, the military survivor benefit is more generous.

Mike Hunsberger (25:41)
That’s great. And then any issues, surviving spouse can get both. No concerns there if you’ve opted in.

Amy (25:50)
Yeah, if you’re paying for it, your surviving spouse can absolutely get both. ⁓ So there’s, know, if you’re in a situation where you need that level of protection for your spouse, you know, that you don’t need to worry about the offset at all. ⁓ Now I did allude to the idea that, you know, if you went without your military survivor benefit,

you know, if you find yourself in a position where, know, financially things didn’t go well for you or you’re now sick and you need insurance, but you can’t get it. And, you know, so even if the numbers aren’t particularly favorable to buy back your pension, it might be worth it to your spouse. ⁓ so that, that is less, that is partly a numbers issue, but also sort of partly a.

comfort issue ⁓ because you don’t have the flexibility so that’s something to keep in mind. ⁓ I wouldn’t bank on it. ⁓ I wouldn’t go that route. I wouldn’t give up military survivor benefit just because you think you can go that route later. I think you should make the best decision at the time with the information you have.

Mike Hunsberger (27:02)
Yeah, that’s a great point. ⁓ Anything else along the protection side, survivor benefits?

Amy (27:11)
⁓ No, I mean, I just think, ⁓ you know, it matters less for military people because one thing that a lot of federal employees don’t realize is if you don’t take a survivor benefit, your FEHB for your spouse can go away if you die. ⁓ Now, again, less for a military family because they’re going to still have TRICARE. If they’re eligible for TRICARE, they’ll still have it. But if you were counting on that flexibility, it’s something to keep in mind.

Mike Hunsberger (27:38)
That’s great. so let’s hop into the reserve guard piece. There’s lot of things around that that I guess potentially could trip people up, but also just things that people need to be aware of. So how do you think about that in general?

Amy (28:01)
Yeah, I mean, so what’s important for so reserve and guard have, you know, all the protections offered under us, whether you’re, you know, private sector employer or government employer, it’s all ⁓ the rules are, you know, basically the same ⁓ in terms of, you know, ⁓

annual leave accrual if there’s an activated reservist so you’re now on military orders and you’re away. ⁓ Some things to keep in mind you won’t accrue annual leave or sick leave during the time that you’re away.

but your pension is calculated as if you were still in place. So you’re still getting credit for that time. So that’s good. ⁓ You can keep, so federal employee group life insurance is similar to SGLI. So your FEGLI will stay in place for free for up to 12 months. And your FEHB will stay in, you have access to your, your family members have access to FEHB. ⁓ Now you still have to pay the premiums, ⁓ but have access to FEHB for

up to two years. ⁓ So some nuances there. One thing that I see people miss out on a little bit is if you’re under the legacy retirement and you’re on active duty, you’re not going to get a match to your TSP. So you can actually do a catch up, a TSP catch up match when you come back.

So it’s as if you didn’t miss out on those matches. So I think that’s really important. ⁓ I think off the top of my head, I can’t think of any other things that usually come up, but those are the most common things that come up.

Mike Hunsberger (29:45)
OK, so that would be for somebody they deploy. When they come back, they can put money back into the civilian side of the TSP, and the government will catch up on that match. Is that what I’ll mind? OK, now that’s great.

Amy (29:59)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. that,

yep, so the government has to catch up. ⁓ You have to submit the paperwork and then the government makes the deposit. So yeah.

Mike Hunsberger (30:09)
Okay, now that’s

a good benefit there, free money. So always take the free money.

Amy (30:13)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

And I mean, and a lot of times, you know, if you’re a reserve job, you get paid less. So it’s sort of a financial hardship for your family. You may not be able to make TSP contributions. So you can, you know, not just make up the match, but you can literally make up the previous TSP contributions ⁓ as well. So that is valuable for some folks who want to do that.

Mike Hunsberger (30:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, good point. Good point. So all right, as we wrap up, what have we missed or anything else we want to talk about?

Amy (30:56)
⁓ I mean, I think it’s just for anybody who’s considering federal employment after military service of any length of time, it is worth doing as much homework as you possibly can, perhaps even talking to people who are familiar with both benefit systems to be aware of the decisions that you’re going to be faced with. So you can, you know, start.

doing the analysis or getting the advice that you need to make the best decision for your family. ⁓ Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. ⁓ But you should consciously make that choice, not miss out on it because you didn’t know.

Mike Hunsberger (31:33)
Nope, that’s great. No, Amy, hey, I think this has been super valuable for folks that may be considering or just starting their journey into the federal side, or maybe they’ve been in for a while and thinking about retiring and some of the other decisions that come up. So definitely appreciate it. I know you’re doing an actual webinar in a couple of weeks with MOA.

So you want to give us the info on that in case somebody really wants to take another deep dive at this and potentially see some slides and maybe a little more ⁓ information than we got to cover here.

Amy (32:14)
Yeah, ⁓ so MOAA, that’s Military Officers Association of America for folks who didn’t know. ⁓ You can sign up. You don’t have to be a member to watch the live version. So that’s on February 11th at 2 p.m. Eastern. So a couple of weeks from when this podcast drops. Now, if you are a member of MOAA, ⁓ the webinar will be recorded and it’ll be posted on the website. If you’d like to register, it’s on the MOAA website under ⁓ events.

Mike Hunsberger (32:43)
All right. Well, ⁓ thanks everybody for listening. Amy, thanks for sharing all your knowledge on this. I think it will be super helpful for a lot of folks that ⁓ find themselves in this situation or considering going into the federal service. until we talk next time, thanks.

Amy (33:01)
Thanks, Mike. It was good to catch up again, and I appreciate the opportunity to share the information.

Mike Hunsberger (33:07)
Alright.